I have to say that the commenter - Brian - is being very civil & I appreciate that. I appreciate being able to ask questions and have an intelligent conversation with someone who has such different beliefs from my own. If nothing else, this shows that people can differ and be respectful. A lot more of us could take a lesson from this.
(So, Brian - I'm going to be deleting some of our old comments as we add new ones, but they will be shown and updated in blog posts.)
Here are the comments so far:
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"If it could be proved to you that God is, would you be glad?"
Depends entirely what kind of god exists.
"Do you believe you are without a soul?"
Depends on what you define as a soul. If you have one, I hope it's testable. - ***
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Brian:
You really haven't answered either question. I still don't know whether you be glad of God's existence, and I still don't know whether you think of yourself as having a soul.
As far as my soul being "testable," I believe my salvation eliminates the testing. I have been accepted and redeemed by the Creator.
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"You really haven't answered either question."
Because your questions don't have enough information.
You replied, yet you STILL haven't given me enough information.
Describe what kind of god. Describe what a soul is.
THEN I might be able to answer your questions.
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My statement "If you have one, I hope it's testable" was ambiguous. I didn't mean "If you have a soul, I hope it's testable" -- I meant "If you have a definition of 'soul,' I hope your definition is testable."
That is, if you define what a 'soul' is so I can answer your second question, it would be very helpful if your definition of 'soul' is clear enough so I can do some sort of test to see if I have a soul. Even better if I can do a test to see if other people or animals have souls, too.
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I believe my soul is what I am. Many people think of themselves as a body with a soul. I believe I am a soul with a body.
You probably know that, as a Christian, I believe that. I'm not familiar with what the atheist defines as a soul. That's why I am asking for your definition of these things. (And, no, I don't believe that animals have souls.)
Since my belief of what the soul is ties to God, I am trying to understand what the atheist definition of "soul" is. Do you understand what I mean there?
Brian Westley has left a new comment on your post "To The Atheists":
"If the atheist is wrong OR right, he has lost eternity."
Nonsense.
If the atheist is right, THERE WAS NO ETERNITY TO "LOSE".
"The Jews, like a lot of other ppl, don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. If they believed Jesus is the Messiah (the one they have waited for), they would worship him as God too. Idolatry is worship of FALSE gods."
But now you're ignoring the possibility that YOU are wrong.
Like I said, suppose BOTH of us are wrong, and the Jews are RIGHT.
In THAT case, YOU are practicing idolatry. I am not. I am better off than you, because I'm an atheist.
But you aren't even addressing this as a possibility. If Christianity is false, worshipping Jesus is worshipping a FALSE god.
Posted by Brian Westley to Free & Faith at August 28, 2009 6:05 AM
Brian - You say "If Christianity is false," but my whole point all along has been that you and I know what I believe (that Christianity is NOT false).Yes, if I am wrong, then I am worshipping a false god & I would have lost all. I understand that. The belief that I am NOT wrong is where my faith comes in. But my questions to you are all based on my curiosity about "What if" I am right & you are wrong.
In the case of you & I both being wrong & the Jews being right, I am in the same position as I would be if the Hindus are right, or any other non-Christian belief system is right. Lost. But, again, this is where my faith comes in.
11 comments:
OK, well to go down the line...
"I'm not familiar with what the atheist defines as a soul"
Typically, atheists don't HAVE a definition of 'soul' -- that's a religious term. That's also why I want YOUR definition. I don't HAVE a definition.
Since you've stated that you believe people have souls (I'll presume you mean 'all people' unless you say otherwise) but that animals don't, that makes it even harder for me to second-guess your definition. Some animals are self-aware (they can tell that their mirror reflection is "them" and identify themselves in photographs, for example), so it doesn't seem to be mere self-awareness.
Remember that your original question was "Do you believe you are without a soul?", not "what is the atheist definition of 'soul.'"
Anyway, using a typical web dictionary definition of 'soul' like "The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity," my answer would be that I don't see a good reason to believe that people have souls. Or animals, for that matter (so at least we agree on that).
Getting back to your first question, "If it could be proved to you that God is, would you be glad?", that still depends on what kind of god exists. If, say, it's the type of god some Christians believe in, where my (dead) atheist parents will be tortured for billions of years without end, I would not be glad, even if I could avoid such a fate. But I don't know if that's the type of god you're talking about. But you still haven't clarified what kind of god you're asking about, so I can't really answer yet.
As to Pascal's Wager, my specific example was one where atheists are better off than Christians. This is to show that your remark "If I am wrong, I am no worse off at death than the atheist" is WRONG. I can come up with an example using an existing religion (and an existing religion that you, as a Christian, ought to accept as at least partially correct), where being an atheist is actually BETTER than being a Christian, if we're both wrong.
But this is why Pascal's Wager is worthless. It makes up information and tries to apply it, which you can't do.
For example, suppose only one real god exists, and this god, for whatever reason, prizes skepticism over everything else. This god tests humans by creating all kinds of bizarre, contradictory religions throughout history (including yours), but only rewards atheists after death (and, say, tortures everyone else for all eternity).
Now, clearly, if this is the case, it's much better to be an atheist than a Christian or any other kind of theist. But that's because Pascal's Wager is nonsense -- you can make up ANY kind of post-death existence that rewards ANY set of people and punishes any OTHER set of people, and use the same "reasoning" to conclude that it's better to be in the first set of people.
That you believe that you are just a physical body answers almost all the other questions. If that's all you believe you are, then I suppose your life is based on that.
You put chains on my answers. If I use a "Christian" definition, you would point that out; if I use a "web dictionary definition," you point that out. Everything has some kind of definition. That you & I have disagree on fundamentals is why I was trying to find a starting point to discuss from.
I believe in a God that you would not want (even if you could believe in) to exist. That ends that.
Brian, I have a faith that comes not just from emotions, but from the change that I know was made in me as a person when I accepted Christ. I know the person I was, and there are things about myself that many people would not believe of me because of the person I have become. I suppose that a person has to experience that change in themselves to know for certain that it is real, but without taking that first step in need and faith, the person won't accept. Even now, judged by man, I am not always a "good" person. What I am, and what I cherish, is that I am a saved person.
I will continue to pray for you that you do accept Christ and salvation.
I thank you for your honesty, openness and civility while we've had this conversation. I mean that sincerely.
So, just curious, do you believe in a god that will torture my parents forever, for the mere crime of holding a mistaken opinion?
I believe that your parents had the same choice that you do: to believe on Christ or not. That they didn't was a conscious choice (you said they were atheists).
This is why I open myself up to tell others about Christ. I have family and friends who are not believers. I have deceased family members who, as far as I know, rejected Christ. The one hope for them that I do have is that, at some point before death - maybe with their last thought or breath - they repented.
Because I am a Bible-believing Christian, I do believe in Heaven and Hell and Judgement. So, yes, I do believe that those family members or yours and mine that died rejecting Christ chose Hell.
I know that some of my friends and family see me as "annoying" and "preachy," but it is only because I don't want that fate for them. I love them enough to keep praying for them.
Brian - you and I can't know what any person's last thoughts were. Maybe your parents and my family & friends DID choose Christ.
Doesn't matter. You worship a god that tortures people for billions of years for holding an erroneous opinion.
You say that: "Doesn't matter. You worship a god that tortures people for billions of years for holding an erroneous opinion."
If God exists (as I believe), then it's not that a person's opinion is "erroneous," but that they rejected God. If God does not exist, then a person's opinion won't cause them billions of years of torture.
That doesn't seem to match what you've said earlier.
I don't believe any gods exist. This is not the same as "rejecting" your god. At worst, it's an erroneous opinion.
Suppose I die tomorrow, since not believing. Am I tortured forever, in your opinion?
Brian - I guess what I should say is: I believe that if you don't accept God, then that is rejection - or at least, shares the same consequences of rejection. I also believe that if you die rejecting (ignoring) salvation, then, yes, you go to Hell.
I feel that somehow I am letting you down. However, I can't say what I think will please you; I have to speak to you about the truth of salvation. My faith is simple, not complicated, and no matter how we go round and round, and no matter how we use whichever words we do, my belief is in the God of the Bible.
Because I don't want you "tortured," with Hell, I pray for you. Whether we call it "rejecting" a God you do believe in, or simply not believing - it is all the same because it means you don't accept God.
As I've talked with you, I've thought of C.S. Lewis, who was also an atheist. When he did come to God, he came convinced. It is my prayer that, if & when you ever do come to believe in God, that because of your skepticism (or whatever you want to call it), you will come convinced like Lewis.
On a personal note: My grandfather lived to be over 100. He didn't like "religion." He believed in "good" and "evil," but he never confessed a belief in the God of the Bible. I don't know whether he ever accepted Christ before he died. My grandfather - who wasn't an atheist - and who was one of the kindest people known (according to friends of his), may have died without salvation. I don't know. I never heard of him rejecting Christ, but I also never heard that he accepted Christ. (I'm not exactly sure why I wanted you to know that, except to say that salvation has nothing to do with a person being "good." Which is why I pray for people to accept Christ. I hope that someone was praying for and speaking about Christ to my grandfather.)
I feel that somehow I am letting you down. However, I can't say what I think will please you; I have to speak to you about the truth of salvation.
But your god has worse morals than an abusive parent.
Because I don't want you "tortured," with Hell, I pray for you. Whether we call it "rejecting" a God you do believe in, or simply not believing - it is all the same because it means you don't accept God.
And that justifies eternal torture?
As I've talked with you, I've thought of C.S. Lewis, who was also an atheist. When he did come to God, he came convinced. It is my prayer that, if & when you ever do come to believe in God, that because of your skepticism (or whatever you want to call it), you will come convinced like Lewis.
But that won't help my parents, being tortured forever, will it? Am I supposed to just forget them and somehow not mind that they're suffering forever?
I don't know what you want me to tell you. You think of my God as abusive. You are angry that my God would send your parents into the torture of Hell.
What can I say? I've told you what I believe. I hope that you would examine your heart, put aside your anger at God long enough to really look at Christianity.
I will continue to pray for you.
You think of my God as abusive. You are angry that my God would send your parents into the torture of Hell.
What can I say? I've told you what I believe.
Yes. And if you believe in a god that would torture people forever, how is that NOT abusive?
(I'll note that not all Christians would agree that their god would torture people forever; however, you've indicated that you agree with that description).
I hope that you would examine your heart, put aside your anger at God long enough to really look at Christianity.
That does nothing to answer why my parents deserve torture for untold billions of years. That's something your religion can't answer.
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