Conversation & Comments (re: question for atheists)

Because Blogger won't show more than 5 comments on a post, and because I am having an interesting conversation (via comments) with someone, I am going to put the recent comments here in this post.

I have to say that the commenter - Brian - is being very civil & I appreciate that. I appreciate being able to ask questions and have an intelligent conversation with someone who has such different beliefs from my own. If nothing else, this shows that people can differ and be respectful. A lot more of us could take a lesson from this.

(So, Brian - I'm going to be deleting some of our old comments as we add new ones, but they will be shown and updated in blog posts.)

Here are the comments so far:

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Brian Westley said...

"If it could be proved to you that God is, would you be glad?"

Depends entirely what kind of god exists.

"Do you believe you are without a soul?"

Depends on what you define as a soul. If you have one, I hope it's testable.

August 27, 2009 3:30 PM

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Free said...

Brian:

You really haven't answered either question. I still don't know whether you be glad of God's existence, and I still don't know whether you think of yourself as having a soul.

As far as my soul being "testable," I believe my salvation eliminates the testing. I have been accepted and redeemed by the Creator.

August 27, 2009 3:48 PM

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Brian Westley said...

"You really haven't answered either question."

Because your questions don't have enough information.

You replied, yet you STILL haven't given me enough information.

Describe what kind of god. Describe what a soul is.

THEN I might be able to answer your questions.

August 28, 2009 6:01 AM

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Brian Westley said...

My statement "If you have one, I hope it's testable" was ambiguous. I didn't mean "If you have a soul, I hope it's testable" -- I meant "If you have a definition of 'soul,' I hope your definition is testable."

That is, if you define what a 'soul' is so I can answer your second question, it would be very helpful if your definition of 'soul' is clear enough so I can do some sort of test to see if I have a soul. Even better if I can do a test to see if other people or animals have souls, too.

August 28, 2009 7:31 AM

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Free said...

I believe my soul is what I am. Many people think of themselves as a body with a soul. I believe I am a soul with a body.

You probably know that, as a Christian, I believe that. I'm not familiar with what the atheist defines as a soul. That's why I am asking for your definition of these things. (And, no, I don't believe that animals have souls.)

Since my belief of what the soul is ties to God, I am trying to understand what the atheist definition of "soul" is. Do you understand what I mean there?

August 28, 2009 12:04 PM

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Brian Westley has left a new comment on your post "To The Atheists":

"If the atheist is wrong OR right, he has lost eternity."

Nonsense.

If the atheist is right, THERE WAS NO ETERNITY TO "LOSE".

"The Jews, like a lot of other ppl, don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. If they believed Jesus is the Messiah (the one they have waited for), they would worship him as God too. Idolatry is worship of FALSE gods."

But now you're ignoring the possibility that YOU are wrong.

Like I said, suppose BOTH of us are wrong, and the Jews are RIGHT.

In THAT case, YOU are practicing idolatry. I am not. I am better off than you, because I'm an atheist.

But you aren't even addressing this as a possibility. If Christianity is false, worshipping Jesus is worshipping a FALSE god.
Posted by Brian Westley to Free & Faith at August 28, 2009 6:05 AM

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(NOTE: The above comment didn't get posted b/c of the comment limitations. I got it from my email about the posting.) My response:

Brian - You say "If Christianity is false," but my whole point all along has been that you and I know what I believe (that Christianity is NOT false).Yes, if I am wrong, then I am worshipping a false god & I would have lost all. I understand that. The belief that I am NOT wrong is where my faith comes in. But my questions to you are all based on my curiosity about "What if" I am right & you are wrong.

In the case of you & I both being wrong & the Jews being right, I am in the same position as I would be if the Hindus are right, or any other non-Christian belief system is right. Lost. But, again, this is where my faith comes in.

Question for Atheists

I have a Twitter pal who is an atheist. I have asked him a question that he just won't answer clearly. I wonder if there are any other atheists out there who can answer this question for me:

If it could be proved to you that God is, would you be glad?

Simple, right?

I mean, an atheist is one who does not believe in God. But - if they could know that there IS God, how would that make them feel? That's all I want to know.

I guess the reason I wonder about this is that any atheist I have ever talked to always claims that they are "okay" with believing there is no God. So I wonder if they would be okay with learning that there is God.

I'm still waiting for my Twitter pal to answer me. So far all he has done is stick to his idea that there IS no God, saying that it doesn't matter. But he won't say what he'd feel like if there is proof, to his satisfaction, that there IS God.

I suggest that the next chance you get to talk to anyone who is either an atheist or a non-believer in the God of the Bible, you ask them how they would feel if it were proven to them that God is.

(And, for those who want to know how I'd feel if it could be proven to me that there is no God: I would not want to live. I would have no reason to go on. If this life has no meaning or purpose other than what man has to offer it, and if there is no eternity - just dead sleep in the dust of the ground - I don't want it. I don't want "reincarnation" either. Why would I want to exist only for what this world has to offer?)

Peace
--Free

**UPDATE**

Still no answer from atheists yet, but I wanted to add another question:

Do you believe you are without a soul?

Support Berean Call

This is a request for you all to please support the brothers and sisters over at Berean Call.

You should sign up for their newsletters. There is so much information, encouragement and fellowship to be taking part in. I recieved my latest newsletter this morning and was just heartbroken at what is happening to Christians put to suffering because of their faith & faithfulness. Here is an excerpt:

In June, North Korean's beastly communist dictatorship executed a 33 year old Christian woman for distributing Bibles, while also imprisoning her 3 little children, husband and parents, in conditions undoubtedly ghastly.

Several weeks ago, mobs involving hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of enraged radical Islamists destroyed several Christian villages in Pakistan, responding to incendiary rumors about Christians supposedly desecrating the Koran. Hundreds of homes were destroyed, and at least 14 Christians were murdered, including three Christian women and a child who were burned alive as the radicals torched houses and shops.

So, go over and check out the site. You can also follow Berean Call on Twitter.

We are living (for now) in a time when some of us can freely support the faith. Let's do all we can. The time is already here where some Christians are having to put their lives on the line for their beliefs. The least WE "free and safe" Christians can do is give our support, including spreading the word and rallying around the ministries that are out there.

Be blessed & be a blessing.

Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing. -1 Thess. 5:11

Peace
--Free

How Good God Is...

Back when I was young, I remember sitting in church and hearing one of the old sisters singing a song that went something like "I just want to tell you how good God is." I don't remember any of the other words - partly because I was young and took everything for granted, including God's goodness, and partly because the old sister hummed most of the song. At any rate, I was thinking about that song this morning because of something that happened.

I've posted on my different blogs about my sorry financial state. It's still pretty sorry, but at church on Sunday, I stepped out in faith and just about emptied my wallet into the offering. I don't know how much it was - maybe eight or ten dollars.

The service was really a blessing because of the testimony of a woman who was visiting with her missionary husband. She talked about how she married him 43 years ago when she was nineteen and he was a youth pastor. She told how she never liked being a pastor's wife because she never felt she had a role that she fit well (she couldn't sing or play the piano and she disliked having to speak before congregations). Then she talked about how she and her husband lost their 23-year pastorship of a church in a place she loved. As usual, when the one bad thing happened, other bad things hit them: divorces and death in the family, etc. Finally, her husband was appointed a leadership role in the mission field. Their new home base: California - where the woman had been born and had never liked and had hoped never to live there again.

The most important part of this woman's message - important because it seemed to be so right for me at this time in my life: We can't always be in the circumstances we want for ourselves, but we have to learn to be whole and joyous in the Lord where we are right now.

She said that she had spent all these years feeling as if she were not really living but just existing ("just breathing in and out," is how she put it), wishing for something different. Then she said that once she realized that, you know what, this is her life, she was able to let go of wanting something else and being joyous in the moment. She said that once she realized that, everything changed for her. She said that these are now the sweetest years of life with her husband and their circumstances.

Wow.

I sat there and thought about how I have been wishing for my circumstances to improve. You know: once Tim and I get a place, once we get "on our feet again," once we have more money.... Well, guess what? We need - I need - to find a way to be more joyous in the place I am right now. I might not live to see circumstances change for Tim and myself. I just need to be here, with God, with joy and with as much as I can bring to be a joy to other people.

This moment we have right now is IT until we get to Heaven and have eternity. There really is no promise of "more," "different" or "better."

That's the first part of what I wanted to tell you. The next part, I won't really go into except to say that God blessed me with a little bit of money. Not much, but enough to cover some of the necessities I usually have to struggle to keep up.

So, I just want to tell you how good God is. I am praying that He blesses that woman for her testimony and I hope it touched other people in the congregation who needed to hear it.

"Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than man sparrows." Luke 12:6-7

Peace
--Free

To The Atheists

I asked and atheist recently if they were angry at God or just didn't believe in God. They responded that they are not angry, that they just don't believe. They think that my faith is useless.

Here is the thing tho: both the atheist and I have a faith. Mine is in that God is; theirs is in that there is no God. But, like I told the atheist: one of us is wrong. If I am wrong, I am no worse off at death than the atheist, but if he is wrong, he has lost eternity.

Now, understand that I can't conceive of the "No God" idea. I have had too much personal interaction with the Holy Spirit in my life to NOT believe. But if I had nothing other than simple faith, that would be enough for me.

If there is no God, and if I believed that, there would be nothing stopping me from doing anything to get anything. Even most people who don't believe in God recognize what God has put in us as the understanding of "Right and Wrong." Most people who don't believe in God don't want harm to come to those they love. They understand it's wrong to kill. They understand feeling remorse and sadness and joy and relief. They look at their newborn children and cannot explain or express the wonder of that miracle.

So, if you are going to tell me that there is no God and ask me to prove that there is, I would ask that you prove to yourself that there isn't.

I direct you to God's words TO you atheists: The fool has said in his heart that there is no God (Psalm 14:1)

By the way, after I wrote this post, I found a page that does address the positions of atheists. It is here. I encourage my Christan, non-Christian and atheist readers to check it out.

Finally, I would just say that if you are going to base your life and bet your eternity on a belief, then it's worth making sure that your belief is solid. This goes for those who don't believe in God, those who believe in false gods, and even more importantly, for those of us who believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Former atheist C.S. Lewis (who, like most serious atheists, was extremely intelligent) has always been someone I think of as a man who wanted to at least examine and understand his belief before he staked his life on it. If he was wrong, then at least he was not carelessly wrong.

Peace

My Other Site Is Down

For now, this site is okay, but something crazy happened at FreeBeingFree and my site has been reported as an "Attack Site." I have a feeling someone has done something to it... I am working with Google to get it fixed, but I just wanted to warn you all not to visit the site in the meantime...

Because of the problem, I had to delete all the gadgets where I promoted other blogs and sites. Until I know where the problem has come from, I will not be putting up any links to other blogs and services like I normally do. That's a shame because there are a lot of great blogs out there that I wanted you all to be aware of.

Oh well... Some idiot always has to ruin it for the rest of us...

Peace
--Free

Can We Be Clear Here?

I've been thinking a lot about how deception gets started around matters of faith. When you are trying to get a handle on a person's spiritual beliefs, one of the problems is - so many people are vague about it all.

For instance, how many people do you know who describe themselves as "spiritual"? How many people will say that they believe in "a higher power"?

Okay, now, how many people, when the subject comes up, are specific about what being "spiritual" means to them? How many are willing to name that that "higher power" they speak of?

When people ask me about my beliefs, I am careful to say that I am a Christian and that I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I am clear because I don't want to mislead anyone. The sooner a person understands my "spiritual" identity, the sooner we can get on with being honest about everything else.

This is one of the big problems I have with influential people. I have said again and again how Oprah Winfrey disappoints me. I just don't like that she is misleading people. Because she talks about "Christianity" and uses terms like "god" and "spirit," so many people assume she is talking about orthodox Christianity and God and the Holy Spirit. She's not, folks. She's got her own definitions of all those things and because she is so intelligent and seemingly "good," people are being fooled by her every day. (By the way, I will repeat here that we Christians do need to continue praying for Oprah, Eckhart and all her other new age buddies...)

I was mentioning on Twitter that while Oprah touts the beliefs of Helen Schucman, she's not so quick to tell the whole story about this poor woman. I will try to do a little summary here:

Helen Schucman wrote the "A Course In Miracles." That right there sounds pretty good, right? Well, it does until you realize the work was dictated to her by a demon spirit. (A lot of new age books were written the same way, such as "Conversations With God." See my P.S. on this at end of post!)

The eulogy at her funeral by Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel, a psychologist and an acquaintance of Schucman's, wrote about her:

"This woman who had written so eloquently that suffering really did not exist spent the last two years of her life in the blackest psychotic depression I have ever witnessed."

I've heard one minister lament that Schucman had been decieved by Satan and then deserted by him at the end. This always brings to my mind what Pastor G. Craige Lewis says about the devil demanding a sacrifice...

Now, if all that Schucman believed (and taught millions of others) was true, why did her life end in such a way? It's completely contrary to all she spoke about.

It's my opinion that people who are spiritually hungry and searching will find something. Either they find the true and living God and accept His gift, or they find some other deceiving god. With people like Oprah, she knew of the true God, but she decided that she needed to mold Him to her own liking - sort of like she is playing Sims! - and she ended up serving some piecemeal god.

We need to be praying for Oprah and others like her. Our God made THE Sacrifice for us, but one day, Oprah's god is going to be demanding his sacrifice of her.

Peace
--Free

P.S.: One of my nieces was almost sucked in by that book "Conversations With God" simply because of the title and her own ignorance and lack of Christian discernment. When she called to ask me about the book, I was able to point her back to the Bible.

BTW, here are some hastily looked up links to info about the subject. PLEASE pray and be discerning because I have not studied all the info on the links.

Link1 (lot of info)
Link2 (more info on twisting of messages)

And here is a video that covers some info on the whole Oprah new age mess...

PART 1




PART 2




Matthew 24:11
Matthew 24:23